Open Letter to RMBC CE Ellis Chf Sptd Sweeney Rochdale Police
big.bro
www.big-bro.blogspot.com
6 Albury Drive
Rochdale
OL12 7SX
Tel : 861552 e-mail zizania@gmail.com
Dld by Hand 27th May 2005
Chief Superintendent Terry Sweeney
Chief Executive RMBC Roger Ellis
CCTV in Norden
I note from the Rochdale Observer 25th May 2005 that you have launched a Rochdale Safer Communities Strategy which I have not yet been able to read, as there is no copy available in the Library yet.
I note inter alia that Roger Ellis (CE RMBC) is quoted as saying “he believes that one of the most effective crime prevention measures is the extra cash (quoted as £300,000) being “poured” in to CCTV surveillance over the next 3 years. “
“We will use the information from the public to find out where most crime is committed and move the cameras from place to place”
You may be aware that I contacted 2 weeks ago , my Councillors, Hobhouse, van Reden, Jane Gartside and James Gartside about the recent installation of a “mobile” ( I think this really means moveable) camera and associated “talking lamppost” immediately adjacent to the war Memorial Garden in Norden.
Despite repeated requests I have failed to be provided with information about who made the decision to install this camera, on what information and why it was installed without any reference to the Information Commissioners Code of Practice. I might point out that it took 9 days to eventually contact Lee Durrant (due to the lack of knowledge of the Cllrs and the absence of the required public sign) who has some (very unclear) responsibility. Both he and James Gartside spoke of a “Youth” group, details of whose function, status, composition, dates of meetings, decisions I still await.
As my house backs onto Shawfield School I have been I have been visited by the activities of unruly youth for over 18 years, the intensity of which varies from year to year, and to a large extent upon the weather and season. The last time, some years ago, I reported vandalism to the Police, I saw 3 youths cause (it subsequently became apparent, £4,000 of damage), watched their exit from the school and told the Control Room that if a car arrived quickly I could accompany them and identify the culprits. 8 hours later a WPC arrived who was advised I had made a “complaint”. This is a typical experience, not only of myself but many other people – as a consequence of this lack of response I and many others long ago ceased reporting problems ranging from high spirits to excessive criminal damage. As a consequence any crime / incident reporting figures are inaccurate and distorted.
Repeatedly in conversation with these troublesome people, they repeat the mantra that they are bored, they have nothing to do, nowhere to go.
As a consequence I think that before massive sums of money are committed, before CCTV cameras and talking signs are disposed, before Dispersal Orders are scattered far and wide I have suggested to the Councillors that a Public Meeting (or a succession of them) be called to debate this issue. To date they have failed to respond to this request. I have obtained Legal Opinion to a Council which inter alia says , “There are no formal guidelines on Local Authorities and Police consulting in relation to a Dispersal area….However with partnership working…where the Police have identified problems you should draw up an alternative strategy for dealing with the issues. This could be through developing evidence on specific individuals and targeting their actions. involving support agencies such as youth workers to look at prevention methods or developing relationships with the community to identify alternative means of tackling the issue.”
Having made private enquiries and as a result of setting up very recently a website to air and discuss the associated issues I am aware that there is a very wide and broad agreement by Norden residents of all ages, for such an open, transparent and democratic forum. It is evident that current structures and procedures are inadequate to provide that representation.
I am reluctant to leap frog the role of the democratically elected local Councillors, but if they fail to represent public opinion – principally by ignoring it, then aggrieved residents and tax payers will take unilateral action which will lead to unnecessary division and friction.
I would therefore welcome your prompt response and suggestions to the following timetable for action :
1 ) Removal of the currently installed camera and talking lamp post.
2 ) Initiation of a properly prepared case for the same, under the CCTV Code of Practice which includes a public meeting to discuss the issue (before any action is taken) – to form a model for other areas in the Borough.
3 ) Move forward with any plans, agreed ideas from such a meeting to cover public concerns / anxieties / desires.
Failing a reasonable response, I and other residents intend to convene such a meeting and invite the appropriate RMBC staff / Police / Fire / Social Services . YOT and other interested agencies to consider the current problems of youthful damage / nuisance / alcohol misuse etc., and also to prepare a proposal for the use of the shortly to be redundant Library building on Edenfield Road to be utilised as a centre for local Youth.
Finally I would welcome the receipt of the evidence to support the reported claim of the CE MBC that –“ he believes that one of the most effective crime prevention measures .. is CCTV etc .,“
I have personally designed the software for monitoring the activities of users of a CCTV system in a large secure establishment and have when I was in business involved in designing and operating Wireless networks. I have also researched this matter and am now actively catching up on current knowledge and experience. I am unaware of any publicly available information that would support this claim – I would therefore welcome the sight of any such evidence or be advised where I might find it. CCTV certainly has a role in certain distinct and discreet areas of crime detection and evidence gathering, but I do not think (although in the absence of details of the scheme’s objectives which are required to be made public under the Code of Practice it is impossible to be certain) the current Norden scheme falls under that category.
As the CE RMBC is prepared to make such confident public statements, which evidently form the basis of the expenditure of considerable and continuing sums of public funds, I can reasonably assume that the appropriate evidence is readily available, and that such evidence is readily available for inspection and discusson..
I believe public policy is best moved forward on the basis of co-operation and agreement, rather than in an adversarial and contested fashion. I look forward therefore to an early and helpful response as I know that there is a large reservoir of public feeling and opinion that supports the above suggestions, currently not marshalled or organised, and to some extent silent, but which can rapidly be gathered to express their current concerns.
I look forward to hearing your prompt, detailed, and helpful response. I can be readily contacted at the above address. We need to concentrate our energies as the holiday season looms when youth seeks to express it’s energy – let’s make sure it is funnelled into useful and non disruptive activity.
The ball, as they say is in your court.
Edward Teague
PS A copy of the Rochdale Safer Communities Strategy would be welcome.
CC by e-mail to Cllrs Hobhouse, van Reden, James / Jane Gartside.
Lee Durrant RMBC
Copy posted on the big.bro website
www.big-bro.blogspot.com
6 Albury Drive
Rochdale
OL12 7SX
Tel : 861552 e-mail zizania@gmail.com
Dld by Hand 27th May 2005
Chief Superintendent Terry Sweeney
Chief Executive RMBC Roger Ellis
CCTV in Norden
I note from the Rochdale Observer 25th May 2005 that you have launched a Rochdale Safer Communities Strategy which I have not yet been able to read, as there is no copy available in the Library yet.
I note inter alia that Roger Ellis (CE RMBC) is quoted as saying “he believes that one of the most effective crime prevention measures is the extra cash (quoted as £300,000) being “poured” in to CCTV surveillance over the next 3 years. “
“We will use the information from the public to find out where most crime is committed and move the cameras from place to place”
You may be aware that I contacted 2 weeks ago , my Councillors, Hobhouse, van Reden, Jane Gartside and James Gartside about the recent installation of a “mobile” ( I think this really means moveable) camera and associated “talking lamppost” immediately adjacent to the war Memorial Garden in Norden.
Despite repeated requests I have failed to be provided with information about who made the decision to install this camera, on what information and why it was installed without any reference to the Information Commissioners Code of Practice. I might point out that it took 9 days to eventually contact Lee Durrant (due to the lack of knowledge of the Cllrs and the absence of the required public sign) who has some (very unclear) responsibility. Both he and James Gartside spoke of a “Youth” group, details of whose function, status, composition, dates of meetings, decisions I still await.
As my house backs onto Shawfield School I have been I have been visited by the activities of unruly youth for over 18 years, the intensity of which varies from year to year, and to a large extent upon the weather and season. The last time, some years ago, I reported vandalism to the Police, I saw 3 youths cause (it subsequently became apparent, £4,000 of damage), watched their exit from the school and told the Control Room that if a car arrived quickly I could accompany them and identify the culprits. 8 hours later a WPC arrived who was advised I had made a “complaint”. This is a typical experience, not only of myself but many other people – as a consequence of this lack of response I and many others long ago ceased reporting problems ranging from high spirits to excessive criminal damage. As a consequence any crime / incident reporting figures are inaccurate and distorted.
Repeatedly in conversation with these troublesome people, they repeat the mantra that they are bored, they have nothing to do, nowhere to go.
As a consequence I think that before massive sums of money are committed, before CCTV cameras and talking signs are disposed, before Dispersal Orders are scattered far and wide I have suggested to the Councillors that a Public Meeting (or a succession of them) be called to debate this issue. To date they have failed to respond to this request. I have obtained Legal Opinion to a Council which inter alia says , “There are no formal guidelines on Local Authorities and Police consulting in relation to a Dispersal area….However with partnership working…where the Police have identified problems you should draw up an alternative strategy for dealing with the issues. This could be through developing evidence on specific individuals and targeting their actions. involving support agencies such as youth workers to look at prevention methods or developing relationships with the community to identify alternative means of tackling the issue.”
Having made private enquiries and as a result of setting up very recently a website to air and discuss the associated issues I am aware that there is a very wide and broad agreement by Norden residents of all ages, for such an open, transparent and democratic forum. It is evident that current structures and procedures are inadequate to provide that representation.
I am reluctant to leap frog the role of the democratically elected local Councillors, but if they fail to represent public opinion – principally by ignoring it, then aggrieved residents and tax payers will take unilateral action which will lead to unnecessary division and friction.
I would therefore welcome your prompt response and suggestions to the following timetable for action :
1 ) Removal of the currently installed camera and talking lamp post.
2 ) Initiation of a properly prepared case for the same, under the CCTV Code of Practice which includes a public meeting to discuss the issue (before any action is taken) – to form a model for other areas in the Borough.
3 ) Move forward with any plans, agreed ideas from such a meeting to cover public concerns / anxieties / desires.
Failing a reasonable response, I and other residents intend to convene such a meeting and invite the appropriate RMBC staff / Police / Fire / Social Services . YOT and other interested agencies to consider the current problems of youthful damage / nuisance / alcohol misuse etc., and also to prepare a proposal for the use of the shortly to be redundant Library building on Edenfield Road to be utilised as a centre for local Youth.
Finally I would welcome the receipt of the evidence to support the reported claim of the CE MBC that –“ he believes that one of the most effective crime prevention measures .. is CCTV etc .,“
I have personally designed the software for monitoring the activities of users of a CCTV system in a large secure establishment and have when I was in business involved in designing and operating Wireless networks. I have also researched this matter and am now actively catching up on current knowledge and experience. I am unaware of any publicly available information that would support this claim – I would therefore welcome the sight of any such evidence or be advised where I might find it. CCTV certainly has a role in certain distinct and discreet areas of crime detection and evidence gathering, but I do not think (although in the absence of details of the scheme’s objectives which are required to be made public under the Code of Practice it is impossible to be certain) the current Norden scheme falls under that category.
As the CE RMBC is prepared to make such confident public statements, which evidently form the basis of the expenditure of considerable and continuing sums of public funds, I can reasonably assume that the appropriate evidence is readily available, and that such evidence is readily available for inspection and discusson..
I believe public policy is best moved forward on the basis of co-operation and agreement, rather than in an adversarial and contested fashion. I look forward therefore to an early and helpful response as I know that there is a large reservoir of public feeling and opinion that supports the above suggestions, currently not marshalled or organised, and to some extent silent, but which can rapidly be gathered to express their current concerns.
I look forward to hearing your prompt, detailed, and helpful response. I can be readily contacted at the above address. We need to concentrate our energies as the holiday season looms when youth seeks to express it’s energy – let’s make sure it is funnelled into useful and non disruptive activity.
The ball, as they say is in your court.
Edward Teague
PS A copy of the Rochdale Safer Communities Strategy would be welcome.
CC by e-mail to Cllrs Hobhouse, van Reden, James / Jane Gartside.
Lee Durrant RMBC
Copy posted on the big.bro website
posted by ziz at
1:05 PM
4 Comments:
Look at it in a simpler way and without over complicating it.
So you put camera all over the palace and make dispersal orders in just about every part of town. So where do the kids do? They'll just assemble their party in a quiet street out of sight of the camera.
For instance Edward, maybe the kids will decide to congregate on the top end of Albury Drive where there is no dispersal order or CCTV cameras, or on any other area within Norden. May the back alley between a row of houses.
So, is the solution to slap a dispersal order 24 hours/365 days over the entire of the Rochdale Borough?
Problem with councillors is that they are all adults and think as such. Ever tried to switch one's mind for a short while to how a youngster thinks?
Here is an interesting point . . .
So there is this anti-dispersal order. What if if bunch of youths congregate at that spot, but don't cause a nuisance at all. Just talking, having a joke. So, they are doing nothing anti-social at all. So they need to disperse for doing nothing wrong? Oh, don't quote the mantra "more than two people so much disperse". That's not what I mean.
Yeh, if it's 8pm and the group of kids are throwing bricks at cars or giving the evil eye to people passing by then maybe there is a need to disperse them, but IF THEY ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG then someone please tell me how it can be justified for pc-plod to tell them to move on.
Now this creates another problem. Those same kids who are being hounded into the dark corners or Rochdale will slowly start not to like the authorities and begin to rebel? To the problem would have shifted and has actually increased? Just to annoy the authorities?
How about spending the money on a place for the kids to congregate and pay for the palace to be manned by a caretaker?
Or, has some accountant with more degrees than a thermometer and no grasp of life convinced the council that CCTV and dispersal orders is cheaper?
Tell you what, let's go all the way and implant a RFID chip in every baby born in this country and when a sensor in a lamp post senses more than three kids in it's vicinity then the police are called out as an emergency case. I suppose a cpolice van with the lights and sirens on can get from Rochdale police station to the memorial at Norden to disperse the youths within about 5 minutes?
Oh... Not enough police... I suppose a community support officer for the area that is paid nothing or not as much as a regular police officer could be alerted on the radio that there is an unlawful gathering of youths (who are just stood there talling jokes, sharing gossip and being social!) that need to be dispersed.
Hey, Society has already been chipping dogs and cars for a long time. Well, you can't really expect a dog or cat to remember to take their ID card with them when they go out to have a tinkle against the next-door neighbour's car wheel. Oh... Now having tinkle on someone's car is anti-social. Hmm... Can we arrest the animal?
Ok, some humour has been injected into the comment above.
Back to being serious. How about the older community think back to the time they were youngsters then try imagine how they would feel of the council prohibited them playing hopscotch on their street because it's a nuisance to the few.
GIVE THE KIDS SOMEWHERE TO GO, THINGS TO DO, BUT PLEASE DON'T CLOSE DOWN ALL THE COMMINITY CENTRES AND YOUTH FACILITIES THEN EXPECT THEM NOT TO CONGREGATE ON STREET CORNERS!!!!!!!
Are parents responsible for their children? Parents should take some interest in their offspring and not leave it to others. Children when questioned why they were congregating in large groups in areas away from their homes responded, “my mum doesn’t like me hanging around with my gang outside the house making a noise” Why should others have to deal with their children?
Recent occurrences in Norden have included youths having knives, alcohol, golf clubs used for breaking bottles, school areas being used as a toilet, offensive, abusive language and vandalism. I agree a dispersal order is not a long-term solution but it is a short term one, which is trying to alleviate a problem for the residents of Norden while a permanent solution can be found.
This Web site should be used to seek out a permanent solution for these young people and the residents of Norden. At present it appears to be an attack on the local council and Police without offering positive suggestions for a long-term solution.
Currently for the longer term, local Councillor Ann Metcalfe is in discussions with the Police and the council regarding the placement of a self contained “POD”, where under the supervision of a youth worker, youths can congregate without being a nuisance to others. Ann Metcalfe is seeking views where this “POD” can be located. Also a number of initiatives have already been set up, basketball at Oulder Hill and music sessions at Falinge.
Positive suggestions required not negative comments.
A forum where local people can have their say is the Community Association Meeting. The community association normally meet the first Tuesday of every month in the music room of Norden community school at 7:30pm. Dates are published on the RMBC web site.
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